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by Nobby on Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:45 pmI have used search and I can't see this being discussed, so apologies if I have missed a pre-existing thread on this.
There is an understandable concern that the second Sydney bid is our main competitor - the Meisner bid in particular looks solid and although there may be some slightly suspect business deals in the past, that would hardly count as reasons to exclude. In EPL it is almost a pre-requisite!
But what I keep wondering is what is the state of AFC's disinclination to continue the New Zealand franchise, Wellington. Bin Hamman's words are hardly ambiguous: "A-League has permission from FIFA to do so [include New Zealand outfit] but only till 2011. Our Pro-League committee has approved this situation but after 2011 all clubs have to be Australian."
If this issue is still unresolved then FFA's position could be that, having approved Melbourne Heart, they may potentially be looking at an odd number of clubs in A-League if New Zealand get booted out in 2011 - something they are desperate to avoid. It could then be that, far from us being in competition with W Sydney we actually depend on them as the second viable bid to allow us to come in to replace NZ and take the A-League to an even number again.
This could explain the delay in announcement and the open-ended time being allowed to W-Sydney to actually submit a bid. FFA can hardly pull the pin on Wellington but a resolution from AFC (in 2011) would do the job for them. I don't have a position in Wellington playing in A-League either way, but I suspect that it was a good idea when we were still in Oceania, but has served its purpose and is now holding (Australia) back in terms of our relationship with Asia - which is a much, much bigger fish than the additional 5 odd million viewers NZ offered.
All very delicate - but I wonder if either us or W Syd will be in for 2010 with the one that misses out being given a nod and a wink that they will be replacing NZ in 2011.
Cheers
Nobby
Wellington
Nobby- Hawker Enclosed
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mikey_porto- Manuka Oval
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Good Post Nobby 
.
I believe that the AFC, have said to Wellington that if they qualify 1st or 2nd, they are unable to compete in the AFC.
It could be possible, by my mail, that there could possibly be 13 teams competing in the 2010/2011 season- and year after that maybe Tasmania could come in or Wellington be booted out.
It is all very confusing but we will just have to wait a few more weeks.
.I believe that the AFC, have said to Wellington that if they qualify 1st or 2nd, they are unable to compete in the AFC.
It could be possible, by my mail, that there could possibly be 13 teams competing in the 2010/2011 season- and year after that maybe Tasmania could come in or Wellington be booted out.
It is all very confusing but we will just have to wait a few more weeks.
Raider_United- Canberra Stadium
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Yea, Great Post mate
From what I know, is that the AFC are not happy about Wellington being in the competition and from what I know is that 2011 MAY be their final season- nothing confirmed though. The AFC just want this. Another option is if New Zealand put a proposal to be in the AFC, then the AFC would have to look at it.
From what I know, is that the AFC are not happy about Wellington being in the competition and from what I know is that 2011 MAY be their final season- nothing confirmed though. The AFC just want this. Another option is if New Zealand put a proposal to be in the AFC, then the AFC would have to look at it.
Nobby- Hawker Enclosed
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Asia (I know Japan best, but I have been elsewhere) is mad for football. There is no great love for Australia - we are in AFC because a significant faction within AFC (by no means all) thinks it will improve their standing and play, not because they wanted to do us a favour. There is though certainly a respect for us.
1) Wellington cannot go to ACL, even if they win A-League (nor can they go to Oceania equivalent, so they are locked out of any windfall from winning the competetion, but that is a different matter).
2) We better hope they never do win the league, because Asian comentators would never let up that the teams we were sending were second rate. There is a prestige issue here that would not go down well in Asia.
3) One of the reasons FFA is expanding the league is to try and secure an additional spot in ACL. In this respect, Wellington is a non-team (since it can't ever go). In other words as things currently exist, before the first game is played any Australian team in A League has a mathmatical 2 in 7 chance of going - almost 30%. This is way out of wack and a consequence is that it is far too likely that we send at least one weak outfit over there, which is unacceptable. If a 12 team league is supposed to increase our chances of getting 3 spots then any one outfit would have a 3 in 12 chance (25%) of making it if all teams could go. However, leaving a non-eligible side in makes it 3 in 11 - 27% and not much better than things are now. A 14 team league with all 3 spots contestable by eligible teams is a mathmatical 20% chance for any one to get there, and that I suspect is where we are heading.
4) In the long term the lucrative nature of ACL and our status in Asia more generally is I suspect (fairly or otherwise) going to require the ditching of Wellington. In addition to any financial calculations about access to ACL money, the imperative within Asian politics to recognise the grace and favour of the likes of Bin Hammen in terms of any hope that we have of securing Asian nomination and support for our World Cup
bid means that if he wants NZ out, then I suspect out they go.
All of the above suggests to me that Canberra are pretty likely to pick up a spot, sooner or later. Indeed, as I suggested in my earlier post, we may even be being used as a lure to coax out a viable Sydney bid.
And now I better go back to work.
Cheers
Nobby
1) Wellington cannot go to ACL, even if they win A-League (nor can they go to Oceania equivalent, so they are locked out of any windfall from winning the competetion, but that is a different matter).
2) We better hope they never do win the league, because Asian comentators would never let up that the teams we were sending were second rate. There is a prestige issue here that would not go down well in Asia.
3) One of the reasons FFA is expanding the league is to try and secure an additional spot in ACL. In this respect, Wellington is a non-team (since it can't ever go). In other words as things currently exist, before the first game is played any Australian team in A League has a mathmatical 2 in 7 chance of going - almost 30%. This is way out of wack and a consequence is that it is far too likely that we send at least one weak outfit over there, which is unacceptable. If a 12 team league is supposed to increase our chances of getting 3 spots then any one outfit would have a 3 in 12 chance (25%) of making it if all teams could go. However, leaving a non-eligible side in makes it 3 in 11 - 27% and not much better than things are now. A 14 team league with all 3 spots contestable by eligible teams is a mathmatical 20% chance for any one to get there, and that I suspect is where we are heading.
4) In the long term the lucrative nature of ACL and our status in Asia more generally is I suspect (fairly or otherwise) going to require the ditching of Wellington. In addition to any financial calculations about access to ACL money, the imperative within Asian politics to recognise the grace and favour of the likes of Bin Hammen in terms of any hope that we have of securing Asian nomination and support for our World Cup
bid means that if he wants NZ out, then I suspect out they go.
All of the above suggests to me that Canberra are pretty likely to pick up a spot, sooner or later. Indeed, as I suggested in my earlier post, we may even be being used as a lure to coax out a viable Sydney bid.
And now I better go back to work.
Cheers
Nobby
Toby- Canberra Stadium
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another great post! However you fail to mention that Wellington are in discussions with FFA and the AFC in sorting out their future. Whilst it remains possible Wellington could be dumped, it also remains possible that Wellington will sort out its future and be allowed to play in the ACL under the status of being an Australian club in New Zealand. Given Bin Hamman's words that he doesn't like having the Wellington team it seems for the time being that 2011 may well be Wellington's last. It's very unclear as to what is going to happen to Wellington.
Proud2BeCanberran- Canberra Stadium
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Phoenix Eye Up Asian Opening
EXCLUSIVE: Wellington Phoenix are determined to remain a fixture of the Asian football scene and will use the club's two-match tour of China as a chance to strengthen ties with the region.
Ricki Herbert's men leave New Zealand tomorrow as they prepare to face both Tianjin Teda and Guangzhou.
As well as being vital preparation for the players, the trip is also the club's first real opportunity to bang the drum in Asia.
Phoenix may be part of the Asian region through the A-League but haven't been embraced by the top brass at the AFC. The organisation's president has questionned their continued involvement in the competition beyond 2011.
Wellington insist they are here to stay as far as the A-League goes and that means remaining part of Asia.
Pignata told au.fourfourtwo.com today: "We are looking forward to the trip to China. It's the club's first one outside of Australia. We play two games before heading back to take on Central Coast Mariners."
While Herbert will use the matches to guage his players' progress, Pignata will be busy talking up the club and hopefully generating fresh interest from a potentially lucrative market.
He added: "It's another way for us to promote the Phoenix brand, certainly. It's a chance to perhaps talk to potential sponsors, investors and establish contacts.
"It might lead to a situation where loan players could go over there, some come to Wellington. All things to explore."
Joining the squad for the Chinese tour will be Brazilian striker Anderson De Jesus Ramos, known as Anderson Potty.
He has been playing his football in Saudi Arabia. Pignata said: "We'll have a look at him over there. He fits the bill in that he's a big, tall target man."
Source: FourFourTwo
EXCLUSIVE: Wellington Phoenix are determined to remain a fixture of the Asian football scene and will use the club's two-match tour of China as a chance to strengthen ties with the region.
Ricki Herbert's men leave New Zealand tomorrow as they prepare to face both Tianjin Teda and Guangzhou.
As well as being vital preparation for the players, the trip is also the club's first real opportunity to bang the drum in Asia.
Phoenix may be part of the Asian region through the A-League but haven't been embraced by the top brass at the AFC. The organisation's president has questionned their continued involvement in the competition beyond 2011.
Wellington insist they are here to stay as far as the A-League goes and that means remaining part of Asia.
Pignata told au.fourfourtwo.com today: "We are looking forward to the trip to China. It's the club's first one outside of Australia. We play two games before heading back to take on Central Coast Mariners."
While Herbert will use the matches to guage his players' progress, Pignata will be busy talking up the club and hopefully generating fresh interest from a potentially lucrative market.
He added: "It's another way for us to promote the Phoenix brand, certainly. It's a chance to perhaps talk to potential sponsors, investors and establish contacts.
"It might lead to a situation where loan players could go over there, some come to Wellington. All things to explore."
Joining the squad for the Chinese tour will be Brazilian striker Anderson De Jesus Ramos, known as Anderson Potty.
He has been playing his football in Saudi Arabia. Pignata said: "We'll have a look at him over there. He fits the bill in that he's a big, tall target man."
Source: FourFourTwo
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JohnLovesCanberraUnited- Canberra Stadium
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great post mate
but i think its a great point... my point of view which others may disagree on is that we should either have NO nz teams and Wellington's gone and it would be all-australian. Or my view is that if negotions* (bad spelling) work out, Wellington should stay in the comp but also bring back the Auckland Knights so there are two NZ teams... i know it sounds silly at the momment, but in a couple of years when Canberra and Sth Coast and Tassie have teams... bring Auckland back in to raise awareness in NZ and have a NZ rivalry... but Auckland crowds will have to be better than 3,000 like it was in 2005.
but i think its a great point... my point of view which others may disagree on is that we should either have NO nz teams and Wellington's gone and it would be all-australian. Or my view is that if negotions* (bad spelling) work out, Wellington should stay in the comp but also bring back the Auckland Knights so there are two NZ teams... i know it sounds silly at the momment, but in a couple of years when Canberra and Sth Coast and Tassie have teams... bring Auckland back in to raise awareness in NZ and have a NZ rivalry... but Auckland crowds will have to be better than 3,000 like it was in 2005.
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Toby- Canberra Stadium
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It's an idea though im not sure if it's sustainable but good to see the phoenix are fighting for their survival.. I hope they do ok this season.
but good to see the phoenix are fighting for their survival.. I hope they do ok this season.
Schimch@capital hill- Canberra Stadium
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JohnLovesCanberraUnited wrote:but Auckland crowds will have to be better than 3,000 like it was in 2005.
why? what makes you think that the crowds will be any different and if they are, why will they be up to a stadnard the a-league needs (12Kish)?
no there would be no point in having a second team for the simple reason that the FFA is getting the TV rights money for the a-league being broadcast to the 5 mil in NZ. what good would another team do for this TV rights deal?
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thom_canberra- Canberra Stadium
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Iv allready started this topic but oh well,
here it is:
http://capitalpunishment.forumotion.net/a-league-f4/should-wellington-pheonix-stay-in-the-a-league-t71.htm
Some good posts here.
here it is:
http://capitalpunishment.forumotion.net/a-league-f4/should-wellington-pheonix-stay-in-the-a-league-t71.htm
Some good posts here.
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MinsterMan- Deakin Oval
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Guys,
I wrote this a while ago relating to the Phoenix playing in the A-League. have a read:
The question over whether the Phoinix will be a long term part of the Hyundai A-League remains a topic of hot debate. In the red corner, the Phoenix franchise and the FFA want them in; and in the blue corner, the Asian football confederation and its president Mohamod Bin Hammon want them out.
From the FFA’s perspective, the club offers entry into an additional market in a city of close to 4 million. With a ‘1-city, 1-team’ policy when the A-League was set up, it’s easy to see why a team based in New Zealand appealed.
The Phoenix has also experienced a considerable amount of success since they took the spot of the hapless New Zealand Knights at the start of last season. Off the pitch the club seems to have one of the most solid bases of all the existing A-league franchises, averaging crowd attendances of around 10,000 and with the Yellow Fever being widely regarded as the best organised supporters group in the league.
On the pitch they are showing slow and steady progress. Being introduced as a new team while the opposing seven clubs all had two years playing experience under their belt, the first season was always going to be about establishing a solid foundation. While they may have collected the wooden spoon, a respectable 20 points showed they were no push overs and put them into a solid position to contend for finals in their second year.
With Ricky Herbert at the helm, who I consider to be the A-League’s best coach, the club recruited well over the off-season bringing in fringe Socceroo John McKain, Newcastle Jets New Zealand international Leo Bertos and classy Newcastle Jets championship winning centre back Andrew Durante.
Just to add some icing to what was already a pretty impressive cake, they recently experienced something of a coup with the short term signature of arguably the A-Leagues finest ever player, former Melbourne Victory crowd favourite Fred.
After a slow start to the season, the club is now starting to realise the potential the playing group has, with a recent run of form and a push towards the top 4.
But just as everything was starting to look rosy for the Phoenix, they were floored with a punch they didn’t see coming when AFC president Mohamed Bin Hammam surprised everyone with the shock statement that the A-League should give Wellington the boot.
Bin Hammam said "Australia is engaging a non-Australian team in its league,"
"But we prefer the A-league to have only Australian clubs.
"The A-League has permission from FIFA to do so but only till 2011. Our Pro-League committee has approved this situation but after 2011 all clubs have to be Australian.".
The fracas seems to stem from the fact the Phoenix not only compete in a foreign countries league, a situation frowned upon but accepted by FIFA (Cardiff City and Monaco are other examples), but also a foreign confederations, a situation unique in world football.
This creates a number of potential problems.
For starters, if the club were to manage to become either A-League Premiers or Champions, should they be allowed to play in the Asian Champions League?
While currently they have not been given permission to take art in the competition, Phoenix chief executive Tony Pignata is optimistic that the AFC may change their mind.
Pignata offered the following response when the club were recently offered the opportunity to play in the Oceania Confederations club championship, the O-League, which would all but guarantee the club a place at the lucrative Club World Championship:
"Probably not at this stage,"
"Fifa closed the door to us on the O-League [this year] so we are focusing on working with the FFA to go through Asia. We are part of the A-League and want to have the same rights the other sides have.
"The O-League is really up to the NZFC and island clubs. We are confident that once we have sat down and had a discussion [with Asia], we can push forward. The Club World Cup is fantastic but it's only one game. The Champions League has gone from US$5 million to US$20 million so, from a financial point of view, it's a lot more lucrative than a one-off Club World Cup game."
Pignata has moved to stem the tide of the problem by presenting the club as an Australian franchise.
"We view ourselves as an Aussie club which happens to reside in New Zealand. We want to be part of the A-League for the long haul, and we want to be part of Asia.
"In view of what's happened, this issue needs to be addressed once and for all, and it needs to be addressed quickly. You've got players, sponsors and fans, all wondering what's going on." Pignata said.
But unfortunately it’s not that simple.
Firstly there is the issue of visa players. Each A-League side is allowed four foreign visa players. In the case of the Phoenix, a majority of their plying roster is made up of Kiwis, which would render them unable to even present a squad eligible to compete in the Asian Champions League.
However, there is a bigger Asian issue which may be motivating Bin Hammon to expel a New Zealand based club out of the A-League.
The biggest opportunity the Asian Football Federation has to expand and improve the game in the region is by competing in the FIFA World Cup. Asia currently has four and a half qualifying places at the tournament, four automatic spots, and a half spot that plays off against…………. you guessed it………. Oceania, or to put it bluntly, New Zealand.
The Phoenix are currently Oceania’s only professional football club. Their involvement in the A-League is unarguably a great development tool and career pathway for a lot New Zealand’s elite players. Therefore, through the opportunity of Asian competition, New Zealand football are becoming better equipped to be able to be competitive in their World Cup play-off matches against Asia’s fifth placed qualifier.
No doubt this situation does not go down well with some of Bin Hammon’s mates from the likes of Qatar, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iran and plenty more.
I would suggest that this is the under-riding issue behind the push to have the Phoenix exclied from Asia and the A-League.
No doubt Pignata and the FFA will put up one hell of a fight to have the club retained in the A-League, but whether they will win over Bin Hammon, only time will tell.
I wrote this a while ago relating to the Phoenix playing in the A-League. have a read:
The question over whether the Phoinix will be a long term part of the Hyundai A-League remains a topic of hot debate. In the red corner, the Phoenix franchise and the FFA want them in; and in the blue corner, the Asian football confederation and its president Mohamod Bin Hammon want them out.
From the FFA’s perspective, the club offers entry into an additional market in a city of close to 4 million. With a ‘1-city, 1-team’ policy when the A-League was set up, it’s easy to see why a team based in New Zealand appealed.
The Phoenix has also experienced a considerable amount of success since they took the spot of the hapless New Zealand Knights at the start of last season. Off the pitch the club seems to have one of the most solid bases of all the existing A-league franchises, averaging crowd attendances of around 10,000 and with the Yellow Fever being widely regarded as the best organised supporters group in the league.
On the pitch they are showing slow and steady progress. Being introduced as a new team while the opposing seven clubs all had two years playing experience under their belt, the first season was always going to be about establishing a solid foundation. While they may have collected the wooden spoon, a respectable 20 points showed they were no push overs and put them into a solid position to contend for finals in their second year.
With Ricky Herbert at the helm, who I consider to be the A-League’s best coach, the club recruited well over the off-season bringing in fringe Socceroo John McKain, Newcastle Jets New Zealand international Leo Bertos and classy Newcastle Jets championship winning centre back Andrew Durante.
Just to add some icing to what was already a pretty impressive cake, they recently experienced something of a coup with the short term signature of arguably the A-Leagues finest ever player, former Melbourne Victory crowd favourite Fred.
After a slow start to the season, the club is now starting to realise the potential the playing group has, with a recent run of form and a push towards the top 4.
But just as everything was starting to look rosy for the Phoenix, they were floored with a punch they didn’t see coming when AFC president Mohamed Bin Hammam surprised everyone with the shock statement that the A-League should give Wellington the boot.
Bin Hammam said "Australia is engaging a non-Australian team in its league,"
"But we prefer the A-league to have only Australian clubs.
"The A-League has permission from FIFA to do so but only till 2011. Our Pro-League committee has approved this situation but after 2011 all clubs have to be Australian.".
The fracas seems to stem from the fact the Phoenix not only compete in a foreign countries league, a situation frowned upon but accepted by FIFA (Cardiff City and Monaco are other examples), but also a foreign confederations, a situation unique in world football.
This creates a number of potential problems.
For starters, if the club were to manage to become either A-League Premiers or Champions, should they be allowed to play in the Asian Champions League?
While currently they have not been given permission to take art in the competition, Phoenix chief executive Tony Pignata is optimistic that the AFC may change their mind.
Pignata offered the following response when the club were recently offered the opportunity to play in the Oceania Confederations club championship, the O-League, which would all but guarantee the club a place at the lucrative Club World Championship:
"Probably not at this stage,"
"Fifa closed the door to us on the O-League [this year] so we are focusing on working with the FFA to go through Asia. We are part of the A-League and want to have the same rights the other sides have.
"The O-League is really up to the NZFC and island clubs. We are confident that once we have sat down and had a discussion [with Asia], we can push forward. The Club World Cup is fantastic but it's only one game. The Champions League has gone from US$5 million to US$20 million so, from a financial point of view, it's a lot more lucrative than a one-off Club World Cup game."
Pignata has moved to stem the tide of the problem by presenting the club as an Australian franchise.
"We view ourselves as an Aussie club which happens to reside in New Zealand. We want to be part of the A-League for the long haul, and we want to be part of Asia.
"In view of what's happened, this issue needs to be addressed once and for all, and it needs to be addressed quickly. You've got players, sponsors and fans, all wondering what's going on." Pignata said.
But unfortunately it’s not that simple.
Firstly there is the issue of visa players. Each A-League side is allowed four foreign visa players. In the case of the Phoenix, a majority of their plying roster is made up of Kiwis, which would render them unable to even present a squad eligible to compete in the Asian Champions League.
However, there is a bigger Asian issue which may be motivating Bin Hammon to expel a New Zealand based club out of the A-League.
The biggest opportunity the Asian Football Federation has to expand and improve the game in the region is by competing in the FIFA World Cup. Asia currently has four and a half qualifying places at the tournament, four automatic spots, and a half spot that plays off against…………. you guessed it………. Oceania, or to put it bluntly, New Zealand.
The Phoenix are currently Oceania’s only professional football club. Their involvement in the A-League is unarguably a great development tool and career pathway for a lot New Zealand’s elite players. Therefore, through the opportunity of Asian competition, New Zealand football are becoming better equipped to be able to be competitive in their World Cup play-off matches against Asia’s fifth placed qualifier.
No doubt this situation does not go down well with some of Bin Hammon’s mates from the likes of Qatar, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iran and plenty more.
I would suggest that this is the under-riding issue behind the push to have the Phoenix exclied from Asia and the A-League.
No doubt Pignata and the FFA will put up one hell of a fight to have the club retained in the A-League, but whether they will win over Bin Hammon, only time will tell.
Toby- Canberra Stadium
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That's a great post! sums it up perfectly.. also keep in mind that Australia were staunch supporters in the recent election which Bin Hammon got re-elected so Australia can hopefully pull a few strings there.
Schimch@capital hill- Canberra Stadium
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great post, agree with everything you said and all the points you brought up.
in regards to wellington cometing in the o-league, i think that that would be perfect, a little extra cash flow, and if we win the ACL any time soon, the a-league could turn heads by having two clubs in it.
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Raider_United- Canberra Stadium
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I think that having WEllington in the A-League could even affect Australia's role in Asia.
I'm sure if the FFA are told again to remove them from the league before 2011 they will have to do or risk being booted out from Asia. I am sure they will remove WEllington.
BTW, great post.
I'm sure if the FFA are told again to remove them from the league before 2011 they will have to do or risk being booted out from Asia. I am sure they will remove WEllington.
BTW, great post.
Toby- Canberra Stadium
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Join date: 2009-05-02
I read this off wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington_Phoenix
Despite the backing of FIFA, AFC President Mohammed Bin Hammam has stated that due to AFC criteria the Wellington team must move to Australia or disband by 2011.[7] However in an interview aired on SBS on 21 December 2008 FIFA supremo Sepp Blatter stated unequivocally that " It is not the matter of the confederation, it is the matter of the FIFA Executive Committee... If Wellington will go on play on in Australian League, then as long as Australian league wants to have them and Wellington wants to stay (and) Both association in this case, New Zealand Soccer and Australian Football are happy with that then we will give them the blessing. The confederation can not interfere with that." [8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington_Phoenix
Despite the backing of FIFA, AFC President Mohammed Bin Hammam has stated that due to AFC criteria the Wellington team must move to Australia or disband by 2011.[7] However in an interview aired on SBS on 21 December 2008 FIFA supremo Sepp Blatter stated unequivocally that " It is not the matter of the confederation, it is the matter of the FIFA Executive Committee... If Wellington will go on play on in Australian League, then as long as Australian league wants to have them and Wellington wants to stay (and) Both association in this case, New Zealand Soccer and Australian Football are happy with that then we will give them the blessing. The confederation can not interfere with that." [8]